Welcome to Episode 17 of Reporters Shop Talk.
My name is Stu Campaigne, I'm a reporter at BayToday, here, as always, with my colleague Dave Dale. Using your experiences as a good barometer, how did you start out and what do you see that is different now?
Maybe you could start us off with one of your earliest experiences.
Dave: Well, like most journalists, I relied on a lot of luck to get my jobs, but there was a different process back in the day before the internet and social media — meeting, interviews, et cetera. My first job, I actually took on spec…I moved out to Vancouver, packed everything I had, jumped on the train and got to White Rock B.C., for an interview at the Peace Arch News.
There is no guarantee of a job, but I figured an interview and a lot of passion would be enough. Just got out of Canadore College. That's pretty wild compared to what people go through now. I got recommended for the interview because of the teachers and whatnot at Canadore, they had a good sort of rapport, I guess they (publisher) knew about the program. They were sort of holding the job open until I got there. And it was really weird.
I got into the interview and the managing editor — she actually wanted to hire a local person — but the publisher wanted probably a fresh face. I'm not sure if he knew the other guy that she wanted, but he wanted somebody cheaper, too.
And even though I negotiated a raise in the interview, again, I think the other guy wanted more than I did. So that was my first job.
Stu: And you would have been 22, 23 years old?
Dave: Well, that was in 1989, so I was a month away from turning 24.
Stu: From what I recall your family had to travel a bit as you grew up. So it wasn't, you know, all that strange for you to go to a different place, but you were kind of starting over starting off anyway.
Dave: Well, I was moving from North Bay and I was heading out west, young man. Right. So that was a big move for me. But yes, you're right. I had some experience and moves and it wasn't daunting. It was an adventure. I was heading out there just like anybody else, just heading west, see what was out there. I lasted seven weeks and I lost the job.
Stu: Oh, no. Your own fault, was it something you can talk about?
Dave: Yeah, well, my personality didn't help me. The managing editor really wasn't impressed with me just because of the way, you know, just the way I am. I think she still wanted to hire, and she did hire her friend in the end, when she got rid of me. So I was doomed to start. But also I didn't help myself. So I ended up in August, I had a choice to, you know, I was trying to do some freelance stuff. I was trying to pitch some jobs with some different organizations, wasn't having a whole lot of luck.
I had enough money for one more month's rent or gas to get home. So I packed up the car and headed back to North Bay, where I felt a little bit more employable. I didn't like out west either.
Stu: I think it's a good try. You never know, right?
Dave: So, yeah, I took a look at it. It was big and huge and it was a portal to the world. It was just not my sort of style of living. And the mountains were bigger than I imagined, but I just didn't see a future for myself out there.
And the next job was pretty interesting, sitting at the bus stop eating a sub. And I had talked to the editor of the new paper in North Bay, The Independent. They didn't have another position for me. They were just opening up. But he was walking by me and I guess he just had a bit of a clash with the sports editor that they hired the week before they're coming up with the first edition and he's walking by me all grumpy. And he just looked at me, 'Dave, you still want that job?" And I stopped taking a bite of the sub, I said, 'Yeah,' I nodded and he said, 'Show up tomorrow.' And that was it. That was the interview.
Stu: What was that like? How many reporters were on at The Independent?
Dave: All they had was Mike Cloutier, he was the editor. They had Robert C. Henry as the lead news reporter. He was covering council. They had a number of different freelancers and columnists.
And then there was a student placement in with the sports department. So I was the sports editor slash photographer slash whatever they wanted me to do, guy with the student, Gord Forth, who actually work placement there.
Stu: And how long did that one last?
Dave: Well, that one lasted about five months. It was a whole bunch of stuff that went on with that.
But I ended up quitting with circumstance. After the editor was fired, I was put into the editor's chair…not sure if the editor was fired or he quit, but there was a big blowout and they threw me from sports editor into news editor for a week, maybe two. And then one of my editorials didn't jive very well. And there was a bit of a coup. And I was supplanted and then I quit.
Stu: And how long did The Independent last?
Dave: What was it? I think they went for another two months after that. I think they started September 1989 and then they probably were finished in May of 1990.
And then I took my next job up in Kapuskasing. I got a call and was told that there's a job up there. I faxed my resume and I might have even had to mail my portfolio. But, I think it was just a fax, a phone call and come on up. So I had to take the train up there with all my stuff and start a new job.
I think my first week there was May 5th and there was a snowstorm.
My first photo assignment was a blizzard that came through Kapuskasing on May 5th, 1990. So a lot of it was word of mouth, right? You had to get to know somebody inside and get a recommendation for most of the jobs I got.
Stu: Would you say it's been easier to get the next job because you've already had several jobs?
Dave: Well, it depends on your track record, I imagine, because they always did talk to, you know, your most recent boss. But also there was you know, they were pretty well connected.
Being fired from a newspaper job back then was almost like a badge of honour, especially depending on how you were fired. Or quit, right, like it wasn't uncommon, it didn't stop you. That's what I'm saying.
Stu: So is this maybe an opportunity to examine where people are getting fired because of disagreements over what's been written from the public or from advertisers over the situation? I'm just thinking of this now, like today and over the weekend. So cancel culture…maybe it existed 30 years ago and we just don't really remember.
Dave: Well, sure it did…the editorial I wrote for The Independent in my first week as editor was about, I think it was called The Naked Ape. I went and interviewed strippers because there was a proposal for a downtown strip joint at the Parkview. I wrote an editorial and said, “Hey, you know, the women I talked to use this as an income to get themselves ahead. Why would the feminists be against that?” And of course, that didn't go over well and I got cancelled for sure in 1990.
Stu: The people against having them downtown? There was enough pressure on you to actually get you fired?
Dave: Well, some of the people associated with my paper were related, involved with the Amelia Rising. Right.
Stu: And this is not unique to North Bay, although we both know it very well because we've lived here long enough. But I mean, this must happen in little towns all over the place where, you know, the people who kind of run the city, there's a sphere of influence, reaches a lot farther than some people realize.
Dave: Well, one of my major clashes with the editor at the Peace Arch News was that...well it wasn't a clash. Like I wasn't doing the job. I wasn't up for what I was given. There was a provincial health strike. There was a major development proposal and I was covering city hall. My first job was covering the cop beat. It was above my pay grade.
And, I didn't apply myself enough to beat it back, or whatever. But my managing editor was the head of the local pro-choice movement, and she invited all the reporters out to a wine and cheese. And she asked me what I thought. And I told her, which I, you know, I'm pro-choice, but also pro responsibility. And, that doesn't go over well. And also, I was a little rough around the edges for them.
There was, just the year prior, a huge community division and backlash over the, again, a strip joint on the waterfront. And I went down there for a walk on my first day and I had lunch. The strip joint was a combination restaurant, strip joint. And I had lunch there. And I came back and pitched the story about the strip joint as the business, not knowing the background.
So I had strikes all against me, a combination of not fitting with the editor's vision of what a reporter should be and also not being able to fulfill necessarily the job function.
Dave: Let me ask you something that you've repeatedly referred to as kind of the way you are, as a, you know, as a good explanation for your, I don't know, your attitude, your outlook on life.
Do you think you would be the same person you are today if you would conform to everything that was expected of you?
Dave: No. Shit no.
Stu: I don't think so either. I think all these experiences have shaped you more. You know, they made you more prickly, or more, you know, more apt to chase down a story than just to give up and just take someone's word for it, I think.
Dave: Yeah, but I have gotten a little bit wiser about how I go about things and the words I choose to use because, in the end, I don't really look at it as cancelling necessarily, as I didn't know how to communicate my position well enough to withstand the backlash. Right. So you get a little bit better at being able to share your views in a way that is digestible and acceptable, I think, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
I think the major problem with a lot of people…it's not the view that they hold, it's how they express it in a lot of ways. And, I think I have become more of myself with a little bit thicker skin.
And also, I realize I only have to conform to a certain point. After that, I won't accept it. And I am confident enough to go forward as myself.
Stu: All right. On that note, why don't we leave it here for this week?
Dave: I want to talk about one more job …
Stu: How about next week we can get you part two of Dave's excellent adventures.
Dave: (Laughter) OK, sure.
Next week, we'll talk about how I had to take a long train ride from Kapuskasing and then back again just for a job interview.
